EP 14: Beyond the 3D Print: Why Manufacturing Judgment Matters

Most conversations about additive manufacturing focus on the printer.

Patrick Dobbs believes that's the wrong place to start.

In this episode, we sit down with master jeweler, CAD designer, entrepreneur, and manufacturing innovator Patrick Dobbs to discuss why manufacturing judgment—not technology—is often the biggest differentiator between success and failure.

Drawing on decades of experience in jewelry manufacturing, digital design, rapid prototyping, and production optimization, Patrick shares practical lessons that apply far beyond the jewelry industry. We explore how manufacturers can use additive manufacturing to improve workflows, create custom production tools, accelerate learning, and drive meaningful business outcomes.

Along the way, Patrick challenges common assumptions about automation, AI, and additive manufacturing, arguing that understanding how a product is assembled, finished, inspected, and produced at scale remains a uniquely human skill.

About the Show
The Additive Advantage Podcast explores what it really takes to turn additive manufacturing into a scalable, performance-driven business capability. Hosted by Dani Mason and Shon Anderson, the show features real conversations with leaders accountable for outcomes — not hype.

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About the Hosts
Hosted by Dani Mason and Shon Anderson, industry leaders with deep experience in technology and additive manufacturing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Where I see people really struggle is if they're trying to implement, you know, additive manufacturing to drastically speed things up, but they're not taking into consideration the strategy of how the piece is going to be made. So, in a way, you can you can pretty easily paint yourself into a corner where you've increased your labor, not decreased your labor.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Welcome to the Additive Advantage Podcast, where we cut through the BS to talk about what it really takes to turn additive manufacturing into real business results. I'm Sean Anderson. This is my co-host Annie Mason. Today's episode is about a topic that doesn't get enough attention in the additive manufacturing space, and that is judgment. We spend a lot of time talking about printers, materials, software, automation. But as our guest in this episode explains, the real challenge isn't printing a part, it's figuring out how that part gets assembled, finished, inspected, repeated, and ultimately made profitably. Whether you're in jewelry production, med device, aerospace, or any other manufacturing environment, success doesn't come from adopting a new technology alone. It comes from understanding the entire system around the work and the part. Today's conversation is a great reminder that additive manufacturing is most powerful when it's used to improve production workflows, solve problems, and help organizations learn faster. Danny, tell us a little bit more about our guest in today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Absolutely. Today's guest is Patrick Dobbs. Patrick is a master jeweler, CAD designer, entrepreneur, consultant, and someone who has spent decades at the intersection of craftsmanship and digital manufacturing. While his background is rooted in jewelry production, the lessons from this conversation apply to virtually every manufacturing environment. What makes Patrick's perspective unique is that he doesn't view additive as a printer story. He views it as a strategy story. Throughout our discussion, we explore how manufacturers can use additive to improve workflows, reduce inefficiencies, create custom production tools, and accelerate learning. We also discuss why some organizations struggle to realize value from additive manufacturing, how curiosity can become a competitive advantage, and why Patrick believes that failure is often one of the most valuable learning tools available. If you're interested in improving manufacturing performance, not just adopting new technology. I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. Thanks for joining us today, Patrick. Been looking forward to this conversation. But before we kick off, do you mind just sharing a little bit about yourself and your background and what you're up to now?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Well, I've been a uh jeweler and designer since 1988. So I've been doing it a while. Been a CAD designer since 2004, and have been doing some type of rapid prototyping since 2004, whether it be milling or 3D printing or, you know, you name it. Spent a lot of time doing both. Um opening a jewelry store right now, currently. So looking forward to getting that done.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Yeah, I think a lot of people know you as a jeweler, but to your point, you've spent a career developing manufacturing methods and tools and workflows. What problems were you trying to solve that first drew you towards digital manufacturing?

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Well, you know, when you're you're designing in in CAD, the hardest part for me is visualizing exactly what what you've built. So, you know, you're you're making something, you're making it in 3D space, and you can't really tell all that much about it. And when you 3D print it and you actually have a chance to hold it and look at it and and you know, familiarize yourself with it, it it just gives you a whole different aspect and appreciation for for the design and the and the process. So it's it's just something that the without that ability, it it almost feels like you're just stumbling around in the dark.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Mm-hmm. You know, I think you have a really unique perspective because on the one hand, you've been a designer, on the other, I'll call it a manufacturer, but you've also been an entrepreneur and a consultant and you've had experience in software. How do each of those perspectives change the way you view production?

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Well, you know, production, if if you want it to be done right, you have to look for you have to look for the efficiency in it. You know, it's it's not just about making something. Anybody can go that route, but you have to make it in such a way that it's you know, it's done efficiently, and that way it's it's profitable for the company. And, you know, 3D manufacturing and rapid prototyping, all of those things uh really give you that that advantage to you know looking at the processes, figuring out if I'm making a hundred of them, how can I shave off 10 minutes off of each one? And and that's that's where so much of the additive manufacturing comes into play is being able to look at that, find systems, find processes. It's easy to try. And when you have a printer and you can print something, try it, test it, look, look for ways you can you can save time here and there.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Mm-hmm. I think that's a great point because we spend a lot of time talking to people and their focus is the printer, the printer, the printer, the printer, and not necessarily the workflow, or to your point, the efficiency gains or the systems. Have you seen companies maybe focus too much on the tech part and not enough on what you're talking about, which is where can I optimize the system? What has your experience been with that?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Well, it's like I was saying, if if you're making a hundred of something, you can sometimes find a process where you save 10 or 15 minutes on on each one or even an hour or whatever the case may be. But where I see people really struggle is if they're trying to implement, you know, additive manufacturing to drastically speed things up, but they're not taking into consideration the strategy of how the piece is going to be made. So in a way, you can you can pretty easily paint yourself into a corner where you've increased your labor, not decreased your labor. So you always have to think about it that way. I I always say, you know, you can easily design an elephant hanging from a string, but when it comes to actually manufacturing that, that that's a whole different animal. So the, you know, the additive manufacturing part of that helps a lot with that. Because then you can look at it and say, how is this going to be assembled? How is it going to be polished? You know, does it does it work for what we're trying to get done? All of those things. Um, when you have that ability to to 3D print, you can check stuff like that. But you see that you see that a lot where people will will make something and 3D print it without any strategy involved. And then like I said, they've they've ended up painting themselves in into a corner and actually increased labor rather than decreased it.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I think some of the process improvements you found are not only, I'll call it in the end piece, but all of the tools and fixturing and and processes that are ancillary to actually producing the jewelry. Can you talk a little bit about how you've optimized different things around tools for production, not just the production process itself?

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Sure. You know, 3D printing is is a is a tool. It's a tool to keep in your toolbox. And people get stuck thinking about it is that it's only doing what they bought it for. And and that's not the case because especially for jewelry, when you're making jewelry, you're always looking for some type of advantage to do it better than the person around the around the corner or down the street. So there's so many different things that you can you can do. Like we've we've 3D printed just a work-holding device so that it's easier to hold on to while you're setting it or or finishing it. We've 3D printed masks for things so that um when you're polishing it, a particular part that you don't want polished, you can have a mask that that masks that off and keeps that from being polished. Or if you're going through a tumbling process and you want a part of the piece of jewelry or whatever uh tumbled and polished, you can you can easily cover up something that you don't want polished, like little prongs or things like that. So you can you can 3D print those and and snap them in place and they end up making all the difference in the world. You find tools, and I make I make a lot of tools because as I've always said, if you if you give a lazy man a job, he'll eventually find an easy way to do it. And and that's that's been how I've tried to tried to live and tried to do things. So I always look at it, it's like in my arsenal of tools that I have, is there some way I can make this easier and I can I can save 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour, however the case may be.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Yeah, I think that's a a great mindset and a great question for organizations to ask themselves is yes, I bought this 3D printer for this purpose, but where can I find gains that have nothing to do with its original intent and just free them up off of that rationale? You know, I think it's one thing when you are the owner to be able to say, we're going to do this and implement it. But you've also helped other owners and other manufacturers and jewelers be able to implement some of these gains too. What have you seen been the difference between the organizations that succeed in adopting 3D printing and additive manufacturing the way you have, and organizations that fail to do so?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

I've always said you you have to ask why. You have to, when you're involved in a process and you don't get the desired result, or if the or if the result just turns out differently than you you think. A lot of people will instantly go, man, that's that's terrible. That's too bad. And I've never looked at it like that. I've always looked at it as an opportunity to learn something. And and whenever you see something that I don't like to use the word fail, but whenever something doesn't work out the way that you think, that's an opportunity. And and I love seeing those. I love going, huh, I wonder what I can do with this. And and you end up through that process of figuring out why it didn't turn out or why it behaved differently or or whatever. As long as you have the mindset to to open your mind and and and look at that and figure out why, that gives you the opportunity to either design a tool or design a process or something. And most most people that I've done consulting with have have just always overlooked that. They once they have something that they see as a as a failure, they uh they immediately change something and go about retooling to to make it work. I think that's a mistake. I've always told all of my employees, always ask why, always figure out why it didn't work, and then figure out if if there's some type of lesson to be learned from that. Having people that just trudge ahead and just ignore any of the problems that they've had, it just ends up, in a way, they just end up shooting themselves in the foot. They just they don't learn from their mistakes, and they don't figure out why, and they and they don't um implement these little gifts. I I look at it as as a gift when when something doesn't work out the way you think. I I actually get excited where most people they get uh upset. But uh anyway, it's it's that it's that way of looking at things that most most manufacturers that I've dealt with, that's where they they kind of stumble and fall.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I love that idea that failure is a gift. We were interviewing another person and they said, you know, curiosity is a skill. And I think you're you're hinting at that as well, that it doesn't have to be something that is innate. It's something you can develop over time. You've helped all of your team members develop that as a skill as well. What advice would you give to other leaders that are maybe trying to have a similar culture, but are starting with the ones that you've encountered the most, where it's, oh, that failed, just push forward and try something new versus pausing and recognizing that this might be an opportunity to do something different. What advice would you give?

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Just always keep an open mind. And and it's not just an open mind, but it's it's the belief that you can. That's I think it was Henry Ford said, if you believe you can or if you believe you can't, you're you're both right. And that's the thing is once you've done it a few times and you you look at something, you you see a problem, and it's a very complex problem, and you solve it, it gives you the confidence to to try to solve even more advanced problems. And then you you see that you can do it. Once you've done that a few times, you start solving more and more complex problems. And it's it's that belief that you can't that's the hindrance that that is stumbling block for everyone. So the thing that I believe the most, try, try hard, believe you can, and uh, and don't be afraid of failure because failure's a a gift.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean this idea that you you can't control the output, but you can control the input. And so being able to see progress to your point as the trying, not necessarily the successful result, I think really helps reframe that, especially when you are technical, I think, and you are used to being able to have things in black and white, and that's a sense of accomplishment. And this really feels like, is this moving into the gray? No, it's still very much under your purview, but it's about what you put in, not controlling exactly what comes out the other side. I like that a lot. I think I want to dwell on this people side a little bit. You know, we've seen and and you've seen it yourself, right? You go from milling to 3D printing and CAD to now you have AI and it's infusion into design. As you see design and manufacturing become more automated, where do you think human expertise becomes more valuable rather than less?

SPEAKER_02 13:40

It's the strategy. And I I talk about this a lot when when I do consulting, because it's inevitable. You want to think, okay, well, I've designed it and and then it's gonna go to the printer and and in a little while we're gonna have a a printed version of whatever the design was. But that's a minuscule part of the overall design process. The strategy of how it's going to be made is everything. And I think that's where AI and technology is, it's it's a long way from being able to affect that. You know, looking at how it's going to be assembled, how it's going to be polished, how it's going to be set, all of those things, that's 90-95% of the design process. And people, they they don't look at it that way. You know, they they just want to design it and get it, get it done, and and they end up stumbling over that that process of of strategy. I hear people all the time asking about AI. How is AI going to help this and AI is going to help that? I think it can help with initial concepts, but when it comes to figuring out how to make it, figuring out whether it's it's better to do it this way or or that way, that whole thought process, that's something that you learn. And over time, I I just don't see technology really really changing that a whole lot. That just comes with experience. Yeah, I think it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

I think it I think that's good. This idea of systems thinking still being something uniquely human. I mean, whether it's jewelry where you're thinking about assembling and polishing or med device where you have to ensure is my downstream post-process as regulated as my printing, there's a lot of that whole systems thinking that super critical to in quality, but is often an afterthought when folks go in and you're designing in a vacuum. Maybe in addition to that idea of systems thinking, when you think about the skills the next generation of manufacturing professionals, jewelry professionals should be developing, what would you put on that list?

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Well, designing and and manufacturing is just such an important skill. Not just learning how to do it, but like I said, learning the the the processes that are involved. I I see it as if if the person designing doesn't understand exactly how to how to build it, that's like that's like cooking without being able to taste. So I think it's it's such an important thing to to have those skills, have those qualities of of how you're going to to do it. There's not really a shortcut. I've learned it's if if you think it's a shortcut, it's gonna end up taking you an hour longer. So 3D printing and CAD and everything like that as as a a tool to apply leverage, it just doesn't give you so much of a shortcut. You still have to go through you still have to go through the processes.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah, I I think you're right. It doesn't necessarily flatten the learning curve, it just speeds up your iterations, speeds up your feedback loop so that you can climb through it faster. But we see that all the time too, where someone may be very proficient in CAD, but an RD engineer is not a production technician. And if they don't, to your point, taste what they're cooking, it is very hard to make sure that that's repeatable over the long term. And I think that's such a valuable perspective, especially in this age where it's AI, more software. You're like, actually, there's an element of this software can't replicate. You're gonna have to be able to do both, conceive and build. And without that unique experience crossing that divide, you actually will be a worse designer. And really, I think that's really good advice, even outside of the jewelry industry. There's a lot of engineers that that probably need to experience what it's like to manufacture something and not spend their whole time just in a CAD program.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Well, you know, it's not just the design process, like I was saying. You learn to see the mistakes ahead of time. Uh, you can test the mistakes. I see people in in R D all the time trying to trying to figure out these complex problems when you have a lot of tools right there that that make it a lot easier, a lot better to figure it the problems out. It's not the way I see it is that additive manufacturing doesn't, it doesn't necessarily make things easier. It can make things more efficient. And the way I try to do it is to look at it is if if I have this efficiency and I've saved some time, that gives me time to do a better job. And what you see so often in the thinking today is this race to the bottom. It's like, well, I've got this, these new cool tools, and I'll be able to do it that much faster and that much that much easier and that much cheaper. And I think that's the wrong approach. I I think use it, use the tools for leverage so that you can actually do a better job than anyone else, and and stop trying to do it cheaper than everyone else.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, you you definitely get a can you have a race to mediocrity if it's like, well, you know what? Let me just faster, cheaper, faster, cheaper. That bottoms out at some point, and you kind of lose the thread of the quality that made it valuable in the first place. I, you know, you've had so much experience in the CAD world too, not just personally leveraging it, but you've influenced a lot of very well-known CAD programs in terms of the features they put in there, the designs, et cetera. What do you think on the software side is maybe misunderstood the most about the people actually doing the work? Do you have any examples of that?

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Well, um from the very beginning, when when I first started using CAD, I was a I was a jeweler for like 15 years or so before before I started using CAD. And and the program, a lot of the programs that were being used at the time, I would look at it and I'd I'd think, well, that's not how you actually make jewelry, you know. So I was constantly going in and trying to figure out a way to do it the way that a jeweler would do it. And the programmers just kind of looked at things like, this is this is kind of how I think it's supposed to be. And I use this as an example a lot. It's like if you're designing a car, they would say, and this is where you put the little round things at the bottom. And it's like, those aren't round things, those are tires. There's a purpose behind those. And that's kind of how CAD was in the very beginning, is is you ended up with a program that programmers thought this is how diamonds were set, or this is how this is going to be assembled, or or whatever. And it's through the years being able to work with some of those programmers, and I've been fortunate enough to be that guy that I actually got to work with the programmers and said the program would work a lot better if we did it this way instead of that way. The way gemstones lay out, the the way the the channels are cut, you know, you want them in such a way that um uh it helps a a bench jeweler to get it done. I've been fortunate enough to be able to work with work with different people over the years and be able to to make those changes. And if this particular setting, if you made it where it just had a little bit more height to it, uh the jeweler's gonna have more metal to to set with. So all of those kinds of things that the programmers never understood. So like I said, I've been I've been fortunate enough to get to get to change some of that and help make it better for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

We talk a lot about uh a sustainable competitive advantage is out listening the competition. And I think that's what you're talking about. It's like just get close to your customers, don't race to the bottom, don't try to drain every piece of the human element out of this, whether you are a jeweler or you're a manufacturer or you're developing a software program, but getting close to the people doing the work, which is a very common principle in manufacturing, but we tend to throw it out the door uh when we're in business. So I I appreciate that. It's like go find out what the little round things are because they probably have a purpose that you just don't fully understand yet.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Well, you know, it's it's all about the little round things that uh that make everything better. So you you gotta ask again, these are the questions you have to ask. And nothing against programmers are just they kind of put their head down and they don't ask a whole lot of questions. And it's funny sometimes talking to them about the way they saw something and the problem that they were trying to solve is is completely different than what you actually need solved. And I've been fortunate. to work with some really great ones that have a great sense of humor and I I can go in and show them why it would be better one way than the other and it's always fun seeing the the look on their face when they go, you know, they find they get it and they're like, oh, you know, and uh and you know go in and and change the particular tools to work the way that you you the way they should instead of the way they thought they should. And that's always fun. You end up with this very purpose built software that that w works the way you want. And that's been that's been fun to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah. I I know we we have the same thing. Could you do it and should you do it are in fact two separate questions. So we we share that a lot all throughout our company and with customers as well.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

I want to spend some time uh before I wrap up here being more future focused. You know you've spent a career I would call it finding opportunities others have missed all over the place. What opportunities do you think manufacturers are still overlooking today?

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Well I think we've just scratched the surface on 3D printing. I think there's there's a lot of opportunity there. The way it's been done forever is is lost wax casting and and I've talked about this for a long time that I I think we should you know get away from lost wax casting and actually start 3D printing the the flasks themselves I think would be a a massive leap in the in the right direction you know for jewelry manufacturing. You get stuck. It's been done this way for 2000 years and you you get stuck continuing to do things the same way. And it's always very refreshing when you look at it and you you ask yourself why is it being done that way and can we do it in a in a different way and and do it in a way that's that's better. I've been 3D printing and casting a lot of chain that is just it's really cool the the designs and everything that that you can get and it's one of those things that 10 years ago if if someone had asked if this was possible most people would have said no and we're doing it all the time you know we're casting you know three feet at a time of of chain and if if you look at just chain for instance it was it's always been made a particular way. The design of the chain was based on how it could be a assembled. So thinking outside that box and thinking just because it was done that way forever doesn't mean we can't do it a different way. And and that's just one example you know there's there's hundreds of examples of trying things and and the way that things are cast. There's a lot of people 3D printing trees and and and things like that as opposed to spending a whole bunch of time spruing and we've done a lot of that as well. So all that all that kind of stuff really speeds things up so that you can do a better job. It gives you better tools to design with so like for us 3D printing and casting chain is is something that's that's really really cool and and it gives you a whole new variety of designs and things that you can do. But thinking outside that box just trying to do things differently the the technology's there so it's easy enough to to start thinking about and and and figuring it out.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Mm-hmm yeah that that last part is so important too where the technology's equipped has our mindset shifted enough? Are we still trapped in the well that you can't do that because it's never been done you know a lot of other areas in additive there may be technology shortfalls in materials for example but I like your point where there's still so much unharvested ground where it is possible. Your tool set today can solve it. But what you have to change is uniquely human, not something related to the tools you're using and I think that's such a great point. When you think about a company trying to modernize its manufacturing operation today with everything we've talked about, where is the place you would encourage them to start?

SPEAKER_02 26:03

I would say if they haven't implemented CAD yet, that's you've you've got to start with with CAD. You can you can start with CAD and and outsource the the 3D printing and casting if if you don't want to do it yourself. If you have CAD then I I would suggest implementing the the 3D printing process whether whether you're doing it professionally and and using the the output or if you're just doing it so you have something that you can look at and as a as a prototype it's unbelievably important to have those those abilities and tools. They not only help you as far as having them to use but they help you in in wrapping your head around designing in in in 3D you know people have a real hard time seeing things in in three dimension they look at things you know there's whether it's a blueprint or something they look at it from from that angle. So they look at it as a series of one-dimensional objects not a a three-dimensional object being able to work in CAD in 3D print your prototype or whatever the case may be you start learning to to think in three dimensions in instead of a series of one dimensional drawings. So it it just it will open all these worlds to you as you're having that ability to to see things in a different light, see problems ahead of time before you get into the manufacturing process. All of those things are true. So you know I that's where I would start I would start with with CAD and then implementing some type of rapid prototyping. Each one has its advantages whether you're talking about printing with filament or whether you're printing with resin or if you're milling something if I had my way I'd have a bunch of all of them I'd be milling stuff and printing stuff and each one of them has its own advantages. So but it's it's just important to have something someplace to start. Once you start it's like a siphon you'll just continue to to grow from it.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Mm-hmm yeah that's great and each is a tool in the toolbox you know there was an era of additive manufacturing where it was going to replace injection molding and replace milling and pretty soon that hype curve crashed hard and you realize no each has its purpose. None of these are going to replace the other they're each incredibly useful at certain stages of production for certain types of design. And so I don't want to lose that thread either that it's not the be all to end all it is a tool that can make a significant impact among all the other tools you already use.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

I've often thought it's funny because you've you end up taking a tool like a 3D printer for instance and and you think man this is solving all my problems and it may have solved a bunch of problems but then it created a whole bunch of new ones. So you know you don't get bored you're like man what I what happened now so I solved that but uh now I have this other problem. But anyway as long as as long as you're learning and and moving the the ball forward I I guess that's all that counts. But you need to be prepared that as as you solve one problem another one's another problem is going to raise its its dirty head.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Well it thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. I think you have a a really unique perspective because you've been in a lot of seats on a bus and most people sit in one seat for their career. So I think folks will will find a lot of value out of what you're sharing today.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Well thank you I enjoyed it. Patrick thank you again so much for joining us there were a ton of powerful insights in that conversation I'm curious about what jumped out to you. I'll tell you for me, what do you think he was really saying about the difference between adopting a technology and building a better manufacturing system.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah and he kept pulling away from this technology peak back towards the system because the printer part is easy. It's really understanding how the printer impacts design and assembly and quality and post-processing and labor and profitability. That's the hard part. And so he spent a lot of time talking about you need to think like a systems engineer, someone who looks holistically at a process before you just plug additive in and hope it's going to drive some of the results. And the ones that succeed with tech integrate it into that larger workflow because the only value gain you get is if it improves the system. Otherwise it'll improve a part and it could actually cause downstream loss if you're not cognizant of that.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah I I loved his focus on every step of the process not just the printing of the part what about his warning that additive can actually increase labor? You kind of touched on it there. That's another theme that we've heard over and over again. How do we avoid that? How do how do they avoid it?

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Yes, yes his his point was you tend to adopt 3D printing and you think, oh my gosh, look at all of these gains and I'm going to have so much more efficiency throughout the system because they're looking at a singular portion. And his point was in any industry, you can design something that's easy to print, but it's hard to finish or hard to assemble, hard to repeat, hard to make profitably. And so what you do is any gains you have in this specific portion, once you go to assemble, finish, inspect and produce downstream, all of a sudden you actually increase the labor and you have more cost in the whole. And so he he made several examples where he goes, I made one step easier the next five harder. And so taking a step back and looking at as a process and a system and tying back to what we talk about a lot here, which is tie it to business outcomes, not printed parts what am I trying to gain out of this technology beyond the ability to print something specifically is a piece of advice he gave that I would I would pass on to all of you where the goal is to prove improve the economics and performance of the overall process. Don't just start with a part and hope that those results will magically materialize with the push of a button.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah I thought it was you know powerful and having known Patrick for a number of years and and been in a couple of his businesses, it takes that expertise of understanding the entire production workflow to avoid optimizing a part but suboptimizing the whole and one of the things I've always admired about Patrick is he, and and I would encourage for everyone listening someone to use the old Elon Musk phrase, someone has to know every inch of the rocket. Otherwise it's easy to fall into that optimizing a step or maybe optimizing what happens in a production cell, but potentially suboptimizing things downstream. Patrick is willing to roll up his sleeves and do the hard work to understand what does it take to make this better. When I interact with Patrick and hear him describe the things he's implemented, it's almost like you do a Kaizen event around how does this step of the process or these steps of the process get done and how do we make that better? And some of the innovations that he's developed frankly it doesn't have anything to do with the finished part. It's making the steps go more efficiently faster more repeatably and it's I think an often overlooked area of additive application where people seem to go like there's two buckets jigs and fixtures and prototypes and final part production. And some of the things that I've seen Patrick do and develop, I wouldn't put in the jigs and fixtures bucket, but they're absolutely production enablement tools. And you know I don't he probably wouldn't use this language but when I think about you know again kaizen event that lean process methodology is really it's so embedded in the way I've seen him innovate around additive and improve the overall process.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yeah even that idea of Gimba like going to the work he talked a lot at the end where he said it doesn't necessarily shorten your learning curve a docking additive what it does is it speeds up the number of iterations that you can do to get good at whatever that piece of work is. Don't look at this as a way to take a shortcut because it'll inevitably lead you the long way around. Use it as a way to get close to the work to your point so that you can understand the whole and he spent a lot of time talking about that as advice to young people, the next generation of manufacturers, where that is a skill set that will not be replaced because it cannot be replicated.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Agreed. I I was also you know struck by how many times he reinforced you know always ask why and then this whole failure is a gift thing. Yes. Which I'm guessing on some days it's easier to maintain that mindset than other days. I know it is for me. But what did you hear in that as a leadership principle, not just a you know technical principle.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

I think a lot of times people think failure is an end point and he views it as information. And so when you're running an initiative and it doesn't work the way you think usually it's well put the shovel down or a hundred percent pivot or push harder. And none of those stop to say, why did it fail? What can I learn from this? And it might be something that's a totally different part of the process that it illuminated but rarely as a leader or someone trying to make a team work through change management is failure the stop. And he said this idea of curiosity, we talked about that on another podcast curiosity as a skill asking why, viewing failure as an information feedback cycle, not a demoralizing endpoint, those are all so critical as leaders in anyone running a business because whatever mindset you adopt, we joke around here a lot of times someone, your kid falls and skins their knee and you burst into tears, they're gonna go way up in terms of their reaction. Well people are no different, right? It's a version of falling and skinning your knee. This failed, it sucks, it hurts, what do I do now? And so I think modeling that mindset and all you do is why he's been so effective with his teams over the years in a bunch of different contexts going into companies and consulting, running his own business, whether that is in the software realm or the physical production realm. And so that that was something that I really took away is okay, something unexpected happened, not my gosh, I failed completely.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah, I think your point is so true that it's easy to say well, we tried this, it didn't work I guess additive just doesn't work for us. I promise you and I wish I could take you know a hundred people through a tour of what Patrick has done in the jewelry manufacturing process using additive that curiosity and again recurring theme there to say how do we make this step better or these steps better. And a lot of where we saw him implement additive in one of the companies he's built is it's not around the end piece itself. It's it's more about the casting process, making that repeatable more efficient, driving costs down I mean if you if you changed a few of the words that the guy uses you'd swear he was a manufacturing engineer, except he's also a designer and an artist, but just a you know real innovator, I want to build on something you shared about you know viewing failure as a gift and feedback loop and how the parent reacts I think as executives it's so important for us to say, hmm, when that project didn't go the way we thought what did we learn from that and what are we going to do next? Not oh my gosh, I can't believe we spent X amount of dollars on this and we got nothing out of it. If you have the right people on the project someone who does have the curiosity and the desire to make things better who's willing to do the hard work to get in and and learn you know every inch of that of that process, you ought to be able to ask good questions about why we ended up where we did what they think we ought to do next and your point about the gimba I mean asking you know a lot of what we saw Patrick do, it made the person who did these three steps job easier. It didn't change the way the final part got made it there's a whole bunch of things that didn't change made their job easier. Those are just foundational principles that I think for a lot of people that watch this podcast and for us we would say well that's part of lean and when you listen to Patrick talk I I don't know that Patrick's ever studied lean per se, but it's certainly part of a great way to run a manufacturing operation.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

I agree. I think too just if if there's no other takeaway it's not that the goal is to fail less the goal is to learn faster. And I think taking that approach relieves an immense amount of pressure from the outcome and puts it where it should be on the process.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Yeah and I think as leaders every time you respond to a I'll call it undesired outcome you're shaping culture. Yes if it's Danny I need to know three reasons why that happened and tell me how that's never going to happen again, what tone did I just set? Oh my gosh, don't do anything don't take a risk don't do anything that might not be no risk, no innovation. Exactly and and people, you know, now if we are flying airplanes doing open heart surgery context is important, right? Yeah most of the folks watching this podcast aren't doing either of those two things or they might be doing something that gets used in surgery but they are not they don't have the patient's chest open on the table in front of them. If you don't take risks the rewards are minuscule it's calculated risk appropriate risk but you gotta encourage your team especially with engineers you know we can be a once we get comfortable with how something works we don't like to change it. You know humans are a little change resistant and then engineers are in a different bucket we have to encourage our people to take risks or we won't get innovation.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Another thing I thought was really interesting about the conversation, you know, we've talked a lot about Patrick's passion for innovation around his manufacturing process. The guy's also an incredibly accomplished artist has won multiple design competitions at the highest levels of his in industry. So tell me about that tension that you could hear coming through between you know AI-driven design versus human judgment, understanding how to design for manufacturability, et cetera obviously this guy's on the cutting edge and he's an artist and a craftsman, but he's also using some tools that I think people would be afraid would take away from that. What did you get out of his what he shared?

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Yeah Patrick has a high appetite for technological innovation in any form. You know, back from milling which was at one point when he started all the way through you see AI today and he draws the same distinction where generating a concept or a design is a world apart from manufacturing. And I think a lot of folks even outside the luxury goods realm can relate to that. You know an RD engineer who's only ever spent time in CAD has a fundamentally different understanding of what that part's going to look like when it's produced and the constraints they're in than someone that grew up in a machine shop that's how to physically make things. And so for him, there's not a tension necessarily between AI and craftsmanship. He goes where the tension is is between what requires human judgment and understanding of the whole and what could be made efficient, that same mindset that he's taking with additive let me look at the whole and see where I can apply value versus the portion he goes take that with AI. Don't have the same mistake where you think I made it so I can print it. AI designed the concept it must come out beautifully no where can it optimize around that? And he's done some really innovative things and optimizations. A great example is he makes a lot of tools. One he has shared is it's around microscopes where you are manually adjusting a microscope pretty frequently when you're doing assemblies. He thinks how can I automate that? Could I use AI with coding and maybe a Raspberry Pi and start to be able to have some automation there in that and reduce that out of labor. Beautiful example of the proper use of it. It doesn't mean that it needs to take over all your CAD design. And so he very much didn't see I would say either a tension between the two nor did he think this was going to be something that saved us all that human taste and judgment I would argue and I think he would agree with this is even more paramount when you're in a situation where people are outsourcing that instead of what should be it's so interesting to hear you know somebody like Patrick bring that point out powerfully in this episode.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

And then I just ran across there some phenomenal content on LinkedIn from the Forbes Coaches Council. If any of you guys follow me on LinkedIn you know I'm a big Tom Posey fan. But all of these you know high level executive coaches that was a theme that multiple folks from the council touched on is understanding where is human judgment or taste. You mentioned taste obviously we're not talking about flavor we're talking about impact on culture, impact on other people where are those required versus where can we you know frankly just let the computer make the decision and if the answer is somewhat you know inhuman not anti-human but inhuman it's okay. Yeah. And you know again to hear Patrick bring that same point out I thought was fascinating this you know I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit we've known each other long enough I think I can get by with this. We've heard a few people talk about the power of curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

How do you foster that in your organization, especially with people who might not be naturally curious.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

I think a couple things we touched on one where failure isn't an endpoint, it's a mechanism for learning. I'm also a big believer whenever you're tackling something new that feels like white space, you have to show meaningful wins that cannot be tied to the end outcome. You have to reward the process of being curious, finding new information and how rapidly do you apply that? And then what do you do next? That's what you have to reward. So if I'm going to try to foster curiosity in organization it may be, you know, what workarounds are you doing today that you shouldn't have to? Where do you find time sucks that you think could be done better? Where are we not finding opportunity that you believe exists? Asking questions that enable them to start freed of where we have been first and then saying how would you go validate that assumption? What would you do if you did validate it? What's something you could find in a 30 day window that your assumptions are true or not and by taking this thing that I think feels scary and ambiguous and big and putting into bite sized chunks where you can win reinforces the feeling of being curious, not just the skill. And it can be a pretty daunting thing we work with a lot of engineers but this is human too it can be very daunting to take things on that may fail. And not everyone Has a natural appetite for that. Not everyone views a hundred ways to fail as okay if I can win once, right? Like it worked for Edison, but probably not for a lot of folks in the real world. And so what you want to do is find out what's a way I learned how to get closer to turning on that light bulb each time. And I think that makes a big difference. I would throw the question back at you. What else would you add to that?

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Well, I I would take what you shared and I and I would put just a little twist on. And I think for many people, if you just said, be more curious, I don't know what you want me to do with that. You know, for some people, and again, I'm gonna I'm gonna stereotype a little bit about your more technical analytical people, curiosity looks different. And I think it's teaching them to ask the questions, just like you were articulating. Curiosity doesn't mean, you know, go off into the ether, turn off the lights in the conference room, lay on the floor, and ideate.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

I don't think anybody's doing that anymore. I think that fad's over. But it does mean, oh, it's a better way to do this. What paradigms am I trapped by that I need to give, you know, the person that I'm leading the opportunity to set aside and really challenge them to helicopter up what I what I heard all the way through what you shared was the difference between working in the business and on the business or in the process and on the process, creating time and space, I think, for people to work on the process and asking good questions. Curiosity is just an interest in improving. You know, if you took people who would stand in front of a room and bang their fist on the table about continuous improvement and say, Are you curious? Probably a lot of them wouldn't think of themselves as curious. It's really the same thing. Yes. It's just viewing it through a different lens. So I think it's, you know, it's understanding your people and how to, you know, curiosity as a person can be seen as a personality trait. What we're really trying to encourage is a behavior. Yes. And that's very doable with anyone.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

So covered a lot of ground. And again, really appreciate Patrick coming on. If you're a manufacturing leader listening to this episode today, what is, you know, one tactical, practical takeaway from Patrick that you could go implement or use to go start implementing additive?

SPEAKER_01 46:06

I would actually encourage a gimbal walk. If there's one takeaway, I would say Now you're sounding like a Linux. I know. Yeah. Patrick and I are both going to have honorary doctorates and lean by the by the end of this. But I would say go to where the people are and ask them where are their inefficiencies in this process? Find out if they're doing workarounds that look nothing like those work instructions, because you'll start to see where there are places that you can make their jobs easier. They're going to have ideas about opportunities. But I think similar to curiosity, don't lay on the ground and ideate. Well, don't go in your office and shut the door and find 50 ways to improve because they're probably not going to be correct. So if I gave one piece of advice, it would be get out there and go view the work itself. And that should be the starting point for where you're going to start to implement additive.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Not just what can I 3D print it.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

I think we've shared enough. We've had enough episodes. That's not where to start. Powerful insight and interesting when you think about using additive as another tool in your manufacturing leadership toolbox to make the process better, make your people's lives and work easier. Love that.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

One of the themes that kept coming up throughout this conversation was that technology alone doesn't create results. The organizations that succeed are the ones that pair new tools with sound manufacturing judgment, a willingness to learn, and a commitment to improving the entire process, not just one step within it. Patrick reminded us that additive manufacturing is at its best when it's used to solve real problems, improve workflows, and help teams learn faster, whether that's through tooling, faster iteration, or simply asking better questions. The advantage comes from how the technology is applied. And perhaps the most important takeaway from today's discussion, don't be afraid of failure. Be curious about it. The teams that learn the fastest are often the teams that improve the fastest too. Big thanks again to Patrick for joining us on the Additive Advantage podcast.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

So follow us on Apple or Spotify podcasts and watch this episode on YouTube at the Additive Advantage Podcast. If you enjoyed it, please leave us a five star review on Apple or rate us five stars on Spotify. If you didn't, email Nicole. Be sure to follow us on LinkedIn for updates on new episodes. And thank you again for listening. We'll see you next time.